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Thursday, February 20, 2014

Hailey Owens case: Nancy Grace full transcript, body found, suspect charged

On Feb. 19, 2014, less than 24 hours after neighbors reported seeing a stranger pull through their Missouri neighborhood, stop and talk to a 10-year-old girl, then pull her into his truck and speed off, the body of Hailey Owens was found in the home of the man now charged with her murder: Craig Michael Wood.

Wood is a 45-year-old, elementary school football coach who at the moment, it appears had no

You may read the full transcript from that show below, as well as see a video clip from the episode.
Hailey Owens
direct connection to Hailey. Nancy Grace covered the Hailey Owens case on her program that aired Feb. 19, 2014.


Body of Abducted Missouri 10-Year-Old Found; Faith-Healing Couple Jailed After Second Child`s Death

Aired February 19, 2014 - 20:00 ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live to the heartland. At this hour, we are waiting for a police update, a little girl snatched from the front yard, Springfield, Missouri, broad daylight. We go live for the latest.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert was issued.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A stranger grabbed Hailey Owens, threw her in his truck and drove away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Ford Ranger pickup, golden color...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was blocks away from her own home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got every officer combing Springfield, looking for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All I can do is hope and pray.


GRACE: And tonight, live, upscale Ronhurst (ph) suburbs, a well-to-do faith-healing married couple`s 8-month-old baby boy dead. Rewind. Four years ago, the same so-called Christian faith-healing couple`s 2-year-old boy dead. Tonight, faith-healing couple charged with killing their second tot. Religious freedom or murder?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Instead of caring and nurturing him...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They called the pastor to pray for the child. The couple refused to seek medical help, based on their religious beliefs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was really surprised.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Parents have a right to believe whatever they want, but they cannot do whatever they wish to their children.


GRACE: And live, Orlando. After 17-year-old Trayvon Martin gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch, George Zimmerman walks free. Then after altercations with his wife and claims he pulls a shotgun on his girlfriend, Zimmerman back in the headlines tonight, claiming he`s just as much a victim as our fallen soldiers. Right. He`s comparing himself to war vets, American war vets. That`s worse than selling his fake art on line for 100 grand!


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find George Zimmerman not guilty.

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: Political pressure and shredding the Constitution and spit in the face of all of our fallen soldiers and went through with a malicious prosecution.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. To the heartland. At this hour, we are waiting for a police update, a little girl snatched from a front yard, Springfield, Missouri, broad daylight. We go live for the latest.

As soon as we get that police information, we`re going to go straight to that, but right now, Rita Cosby, investigative journalist, who is the little girl? What do we know about her? Where was she? What happened?

RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: It`s a heart-breaking story, Nancy. Ten-year-old Hailey Owens was walking back after visiting a friend. She went to school. She`s a 4th grader. She was in front of her friend`s home, which is literally just a few blocks from her house, when suddenly, a man in a gold Ford Ranger drove around. She ignored him at first, then he came back again, and then he suddenly snatched her into his vehicle.

GRACE: Tell me about the car again, please?

COSBY: It is a 2008 gold-colored Ford Ranger, and it was driven by this man who was circling the neighborhood. Witnesses saw him.

GRACE: Everyone, we are waiting for an update, a 10-year-old little girl abducted from a front yard right there in her neighborhood. Rita, you`re telling me that the guy -- and of course, it`s a man -- the guy`s vehicle was circling the neighborhood? Did anybody notice it? How did he get the girl in the car?

COSBY: Well, first he came upon the girl, and the girl ignored him, according to witnesses who were also walking in the neighborhood. Then he came up again, and he asked the girl for directions. He said, Do you know where Springfield Street is, which is a street nearby that area. The girl then walked over to him, and that`s when he pulled her literally inside through the driver`s side, over him, and into the passenger`s side.

The good news is there were two witnesses who were able to identify the vehicle and gave the license plate to authorities.

GRACE: A 10-year-old girl in a front yard in her neighborhood playing. Who are the witnesses, Rita? Was she playing with other children?

COSBY: She had been playing with other children, but what we know now is there were two witnesses, an adult couple in the area. The man actually -- when he saw this happen, he tried to run after the vehicle and stop the vehicle. He was unsuccessful. The wife was able to get the license plate number and was able to give that to authorities. So that was critical information.

GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing a gorgeous tree-lined neighborhood. In the last hours, this little girl is snatched from a front yard here. This could be my hometown. Look at this. This 10-year-old little girl playing in the front yard is snatched by a man in a vehicle who`s been circling, circling, circling until finally, he comes up with a question for the little girl.

The little girl goes to the car -- I mean, how do you tell your children about stranger danger without telling them -- might (ph) making them afraid? This 10-year-old girl goes to answer a question. He acts like he`s asking for directions.

Isn`t that what he did, Rita?

COSBY: Indeed. And in fact, at first, she ignored him when he pulled up, saying, you know, this is a stranger, obviously, reacting that way. And then he, you know, with a kind face, apparently, according to these witnesses, Do you know where such and such street is? And then that`s when she responded. It`s a horrible story.

GRACE: We`re going right now to hear what police say. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had observed a vehicle in the neighborhood, circling the neighborhood, also observed our victim, and at some point, observed the vehicle pull up and have a conversation, the driver have a conversation with the young girl.

If I remember the reports correctly, she initially ignored, and then came back and spoke with the driver. At which time, he suddenly jumped out and grabbed her and pulled her into the vehicle. Our witnesses said it happened just that quick out in the street, and then the vehicle sped off. No indication at this point that they knew each other at all. A couple witnesses who observed it chased the vehicle on foot. Someone else actually got into a car and tried to chase the -- follow the vehicle.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are now able to confirm that we have, in fact, discovered a young female body pursuant to a search warrant at 1538 East Stanford in Springfield. While she has not been positively identified, we have a high degree of confidence that it is our victim, Hailey Owens. An official finding regarding identity and cause of death, unfortunately, won`t be determined until after an autopsy is performed at a later date.

Throughout this investigation, we have kept the family informed of our progress. In fact, we let them know early this morning it was a possibility that we had, in fact, located a body. But at that point, we were not able to confirm the fact that this was our victim.


GRACE: The little girl has been found. I know that they`re saying they`re awaiting positive ID, but it`s her. It`s Hailey. And she is dead.

Joining me right now out of Springfield is Chief Paul Williams with the Springfield Police Department. Chief, I`ve got children, twins age 6. It`s so hard for me to take in that one minute, this little girl is playing out in a front yard, and within a couple of hours, she`s dead.

And people were chasing the car. They were running after the car. Somebody got in a car and chased him. They chased him and they couldn`t catch him!

Chief, what happened?

CHIEF PAUL WILLIAMS, SPRINGFIELD POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): You know, I listened to the first part of what you described, and it`s very accurate. It did happen that quick, simply a little girl on her way home from a friend`s house to her house and abducted by a stranger from the street. It`s tragic, and ended up with some very horrific -- a horrific conclusion.

GRACE: With me is Chief Paul Williams, the chief of the Springfield Police Department. Chief, what else can you do? The child is right there in the neighborhood. The houses are all right together. It`s broad daylight. Let`s see the neighborhood again, Liz. She`s in the front yard minding her own business. People chase after him in their car, by foot, when he grabs the little girl.

What more can we do?

WILLIAMS: You know, unfortunately, there`s not much, other than keep your kids inside and close to you, directly with you at all times. You know, we try to give our kids a little freedom and let them experience life. And it`s just unfortunate. It`s a symptom of the human condition that there are bad people out there that do bad things. And we do what we can to protect our kids, and I know in this situation, it just didn`t work out the way it should have.

GRACE: We are awaiting more information on what happened to little Hailey, but right now, I`m getting this information. The alleged kidnapper is a 45-year-old white male, Craig Michael Wood.
Craig Michael Wood has been charged with murder
(read Craig Wood's charge report in PDF)
Let`s see Craig Michael Wood`s picture in full, please, Liz. Craig Michael Wood -- he was found in the suspected vehicle at a house in the area. Police at this hour searching property found -- they have found evidence of foul play.

He is in the same neighborhood, Chief? He lives in that neighborhood, or he was hiding in a house in that neighborhood?

WILLIAMS: Actually, no. The residence he lived at and where we actually found him was completely on the other side of town. The abduction took place in the far west part of Springfield, and he was located and we recovered the body in a residence in the midtown area.

So no connection to that neighborhood at all, that we can tell from the suspect.

GRACE: Approximately five miles apart, the crime scene and where Hailey was kidnapped. Is that right, Chief?

WILLIAMS: That`s pretty correct, yes.

GRACE: What do we know -- out to you, Rita Cosby. What do we know about Craig Michael Wood?

COSBY: Well, we know that he`s a paraprofessional, which is sort of an unlicensed teacher. He also is a coach at another school, not the same school as Hailey Owens, but also a school through K through 8. He did have some issues at the school, but he also had...

GRACE: Did you just say he was a coach?

COSBY: Yes, he was a football coach, and other sports.

GRACE: A coach at what grades, Rita?

COSBY: It`s K through 8, and it is not her school. Remember, she`s a 4th grader. Different school.

GRACE: When we keep saying it`s not in the area, it`s five miles apart. It all happens in a five-mile triangle. He had been looking in this neighborhood, Rita.

Everyone, you are seeing a shot of this little 4th grade girl, Hailey, Hailey Owens snatched out of a front yard as she`s playing in broad daylight in her neighborhood. We are waiting for more from police on the alleged perpetrator, Craig Michael Wood, age 45, a coach at a local school, and a prior drug conviction.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a parent-child abduction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An amber alert was issued...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A stranger grabbed Hailey Owens, threw her in his truck and drove away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Ford Ranger pickup, gold in color.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was blocks away from her own home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got every officer combing Springfield, looking for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All`s I can do is hope and pray.


GRACE: We are just discovering that the child`s body was found inside Craig Michael Wood`s home, the 1500 block of East Stanford Street there in Springfield, Missouri. So the child is snatched and she`s dead, and her body is in his home in less than basically an hour. Wood, a 7th grade football coach and teacher`s aide who supervises in-school suspensions at Pleasant View K through 8 school -- I just can`t believe that this guy with a drug background is at a pre-K -- at a K through 8 school.

Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Shireen Hormozdi and Jeff Gold. Out to you first, Shireen. The body is in his home. Weigh in. What`s the defense?

SHIREEN HORMOZDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Stranger danger. You hit it on the had earlier. Had this child been instructed earlier, Under no circumstances do you approach a stranger`s car...

GRACE: OK, I`m not talking to you about stranger danger. I`m asking you the defense for this guy. The body is found within an hour of the girl going missing. People are chasing his car down the road. What`s your defense? What do you possibly say?

HORMOZDI: As his attorney, I`d want to know if there was a previous relationship between him and this child.

GRACE: Would that matter?

HORMOZDI: If there was a legitimate reason for her to be in the house, there could be an explanation for why she was killed inside or died inside.

GRACE: Jeff Gold, people saw him grab her, put her in the vehicle, she`s found in his home within a couple of hours dead -- a 4th grader, a 10-year-old girl playing in the front yard, Jeff. What`s your defense?

JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not much. But I`ll tell you, we need to know how the child died...

GRACE: Well, I`m not hiring you!

GOLD: You may not hire me on this one, but this is a bad one.

GRACE: I`m not.

GOLD: This is a bad one, Nancy. We have to know what happened in that house. We have to know the cause of death, obviously. We have to know if he gave any statements. But look, it don`t look good.

GRACE: Well, that much I agree with you on.

To Kelly Lamm, host of "Kelly Lamm at Noon, The Woman." Kelly, thank you for being with us, joining me from Missouri. What are you hearing?

KELLY LAMM, HOST, "KELLY LAMM AT NOON" (via telephone): Well, it`s devastating, that`s for sure. The scary part is, as a mother like yourself, finding out that this was actually witnessed -- witnessed -- and we still couldn`t get him. That`s terribly frightening. And then to find out later on that she has now been found -- it`s devastating to all of us as a parent and just as anyone knowing that a child lost her life that quickly that we couldn`t save her.

GRACE: For those of you joining us, we are live in Missouri, in the heartland. A 10-year-old little girl playing in the front yard, broad daylight. Show me the neighborhood again, please, Liz. This little girl, a 4th grader, playing, broad daylight. A truck keeps circling the area until he finally gets her. She didn`t pay any attention the first couple of times he spoke, finally asking directions, and that was just enough time to grab her -- to grab her, drag her across from the driver`s side -- the passenger`s side to the driver`s side, slam the door and take off.

As we go to air, we learn this little girl`s body has just been found in the home of Craig Michael Wood, a 45-year-old white male who is actually working at a local school, K through 8.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have many different emotions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police combed the area where a stranger grabbed Hailey Owens, threw her in his truck and drove away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the block of West Lombard Street in reference to a reported child abduction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a Ford Ranger pickup, pulled her into the vehicle and they left the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was blocks away from her own home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just really breaks my heart to see this, and my heart goes out to them.


GRACE: We are now learning the child`s body has been found in the home of Craig Michael Wood, age 45. Can I see his photo, please? He is actually a coach at a local school for grades K through 8.

What is he doing as a coach, Caryn Stark, at a school K through 8?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I`m not surprised, Nancy. You find that happens so often. I mean, what`s a more desirable thing for someone who`s a pedophile, who`s interested in children, than to coach children? This is a guy who has a prior -- I think you said for drugs, so he`s addicted to drugs. He`s addicted to children. And it looks like he`s addicted to murder.

GRACE: At some point, witnesses -- and I`m reading from police documents -- observe the vehicle pull up, and the driver has a conversation with the young girl. She initially ignored him, then comes back and spoke with him. He suddenly jumped out, grabbed her and put her into the vehicle. She never had a chance.

Let`s go out to Dr. Panchali Dhar, physician. Why is it taking so long to identify the body and give a cause of death, Doctor?

DR. PANCHALI DHAR, PHYSICIAN (via telephone): Well, first (INAUDIBLE) have to identify the body. Of course, there`s DNA testing to confirm whether it`s Hailey Owens or not. And then after that, they have to do the autopsy to identify fully if there`s a related cause of death.

This could be somebody else`s body entirely. It`s totally possible that it`s some other child. So it would be premature to say right away, That`s it, that`s Hailey Owens, it`s got to be.

GRACE: Back out to the lines. Out to Phyllis. Hi, Phyllis. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It`s great to talk with you. I really don`t have a question, but I have a comment. I believe that one way to get rid of these child killers, these monsters, in a first-time offense, my opinion is, is to brand their head with a nice big "M" so that babies can see these monsters coming.

They have to do something because it`s ridiculous. They`re hurting our babies. They`re killing our babies for no reason. It`s heart-breaking for the parents. It`s heart-breaking for the country. It`s got to be stopped somehow.

GRACE: You know, sadly, Phyllis, here`s a guy with a drug past working at a local school, K through 8. And no matter what you do with offenders, they seem to get back out. And the degree of recidivism or repeat offense is skyrocketing.

Everyone, the sad news, the Amber Alert for a little girl, a 4th grader, Hailey Owens, is over. Her body has been found in the home of the perpetrator. He literally snatched her out of the front yard in her own neighborhood.

When we come back, a well-to-do faith-healing couple charged with killing their second tot. Religious freedom or murder?


GRACE: Live, upscale Ronhurst (ph) suburbs, a well-to-do faith- healing married couple`s 8-month-old baby boy dead. Rewind. Four years ago, the same so-called Christian faith-healing couple`s 2-year-old boy dead. Tonight, faith-healing couple charged with killing their second tot? Religious freedom or murder?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Third degree murder, involuntary manslaughter, conspiracy and endangering the welfare of a child for the death of their son.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn`t seek medical treatment because they believe in God.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I knew that something like this could easily have happened because I knew at their sentencing that they were not going to follow the judge`s instruction.


GRACE: They were not going to follow the judge`s instructions. What is she talking about? It was just about four years ago that another one of their children died, a 2-year-old tot, from pneumonia. Pneumonia.

Straight out to Rich Zeoli, show host on WPHT. Rich, what happened?

RICH ZEOLI, WPHT (via telephone): Nancy, this is akin to terrorism in the name of God or murder in the name of God. There`s no shortage of it. Seven-month-old son suffered and died of bacterial pneumonia. Couple was ordered, Philadelphia couple ordered to provide medical care by a judge, and they denied the judge`s order. And the son died at their home of bacterial pneumonia, suffered and died.

GRACE: Joining me right now is Dr. John McArthur, the pastor of Grace Community Church of the Valley, joining me in L.A. Dr. McArthur, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Dr. McArthur, this is very, very upsetting. The first time this happened, about four years ago, their two-year-old tot died of pneumonia. Now their infant dies. The first time, everyone turned the other way. The judge gave them straight probation and ordered them to give medical treatment to their children. They turned the other way, hiding -- hiding -- behind religious freedom. Dr. McArthur, you are a very, very strong Christian. You`re known worldwide. But I do not believe that this is God`s work. I do not believe in this. I think that this is murder. I do.

MCARTHUR: I would agree with you, Nancy, 100 percent. When your style of parenting results in the unnecessary death of your children, that is criminal behavior in every sense. You know, if you go back to the Old Testament, God condemned the Canaanite civilization because they offered their babies on an altar and incinerated them to pacify their god. That was paganism at its worst. Now we have people who have some kind of religion that they call Christianity that ends up with their children being dead? First of all, that`s criminal behavior. And secondly, it has nothing to do with Christianity. Nothing whatsoever.

The Bible never tells parents to do anything but to care for their children, to raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Jesus picked up little children and blessed them and said such is the kingdom of God. Parenting is about protection. Parenting is about preservation. It`s not about living out some bizarre, aberrant religion that ends up in the death of your children.

GRACE: Well, Dr. McArthur, everyone with me, Dr. John McArthur, pastor at Grace Community Church of the Valley in L.A. They are members of what is called a small Pentecostal community, the First Century Gospel Church. And I`ve heard of this, the faith healing, the not taking them to the doctor. I`m very, very well versed with Christian Science. But they were under court order, Dr. McArthur, after their last child died, and here`s what`s scaring me. They got to plead no contest under the guise of religious freedom. And they were ordered, Dr. McArthur, to take their other children to the doctor. And everybody in the courtroom knew they said at that time they`re not going to take them to the doctor. They all stood by, and now another child is dead. And you know they`ve got seven other children. Do you see that beautiful house they`ve got? Liz, show that big red brick house they`ve got. They`ve got seven other children. What`s going to happen to them, Dr. McArthur? What would you say to these parents tonight?

MCARTHUR: Hopefully these parents will be removed from those children, because those children are vulnerable. I read a comment by the pastor of their church, who has managed to brainwash them in this kind of stuff, that if another of their children gets sick, they won`t take that child to the doctor, either. If ever there was a situation where these parents need to be removed permanently from their children, it is this one.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Shireen Hormozdi and Jeff Gold. First, out to you, Shireen. At the very least, they should have done jail time. If they had not been hiding behind religious freedom, and I am a Christian. I`ll put it out there. Everybody can mock me if they want to, make fun of me online, fine. But you cannot hide behind your religion. They should have gone to jail the first time. If they had not hidden behind religious freedom the first time, they would have been in jail. But some judge, some weak judge, Judge Carolyn Engel Temin, gave them straight probation last time, and now they`re going to plead no contest. They are not even going to end up getting -- it`s three and a half to seven years. This should be life behind bars, Shireen.

HORMOZDI: The DA got it right with the involuntary manslaughter charge. There is no intent here.

GRACE: They sat there and watched the child die.

HORMOZDI: It wasn`t intentional.

GRACE: Brutal.

HORMOZDI: Based on the religious beliefs of the parents --


GRACE: Why do you keep bringing God into this? He does not have anything to do with it. In fact, I guarantee you the angels are crying, and here you are dragging them into it, Shireen.

HORMOZDI: There is no intent in this case. The child died because of religious beliefs.

GRACE: Hold on. Dr. Panchali Dhar, are you familiar with the death of the second child of a bacterial illness?

DHAR: Yes, I am. And let me tell you, this is a classic case of medical neglect, and 20,000 children die every year from this type of medical neglect. This is not an unheard of issue.

GRACE: What did that child go through, Dr. Dhar? What did the child go through?

DHAR: From my understanding, the child had some diarrhea and febral illness the week before. It resulted in a pneumonia in the middle of winter. I think what happened was the child went into septic shock, which is life-threatening and needed immediate antibiotics. The antibiotics could have saved the child and proper medical care. This is a preventable death. So any child that`s medically neglected, signs of medical neglect would include poor nutrition, poor hygiene, delayed growth.

GRACE: They sat by, Dr. Dhar, and they watched the child die. To Rich Zeoli, talk show host joining me out of Pennsylvania. Rich, thank you for being with us. The possible sentence is three and a half to seven. Seven years behind bars max for two dead children?

ZEOLI: Yes, the sentence is a joke, Nancy, and this is not about religion. If you`re an adult and you want to say I want to faith heal, that`s your choice as an adult. But when you`re caring for children, children don`t have the ability to make that choice. This is not a religious freedom argument. I`m a Christian just like you are, and I believe in individual freedom just like you do. These are children, and two of them are dead because parents neglected them. That`s not religious freedom, that`s murder, that`s neglect, and seven years is a slap on the wrist.

GRACE: While they suffered, the children suffered. I`m going to go back to Dr. John McArthur, pastor of one of the biggest churches in California, the pastor of Grace Community Church of the Valley. Dr. McArthur, you know, one of the last, apparently, okay things to mock is Christianity, and I`m braced for it, but this is not Christianity. I don`t care what that Pentecostal church says, standing by and letting your child, the second child -- preacher, when they get out, and they`ll probably get out in about 18 months, two years max, they`re going right back to the other children. There`s seven other children, Dr. McArthur.

MCARTHUR: Yes, that would be serious neglect. But back to the point about Christianity, Nancy, one of the reasons that people mock Christianity is because they have to cope with these horrendous misrepresentations of Christianity. The whole faith healing movement is a scam that divests the poorest, the people with the least resources and the most desperation of their money at the behest of a healer or church leader like this guy. They become rich, they become prosperous on the backs of desperate people who seek something that they cannot deliver.

Look, healings do not happen. Miraculous healings do not happen at the hands of these supposed healers and by these mechanisms. It`s a scam, and it preys on the least of these. It preys on the most desperate people. This is not Christianity.

You know, people don`t counterfeit brown paper and sticks. They counterfeit the true. And there is a true gospel and the true Christianity, and what it offers is salvation from sin and eternal life, not some supposed healing in the body.

GRACE: Well, I can guarantee these two, if they get eternal life, Reverend McArthur, I can guarantee you there`s going to be somewhere very, very hot. Thank you, Dr. McArthur.

When we come back, George Zimmerman back in the headlines claiming he`s just as much a victim as our fallen soldiers? Hey, Zimmerman! That`s worse than selling your fake art online for 100 grand!



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some people will say you are profiting off of the tragic loss of another person`s life, the actual killing of a kid. How do you respond?

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: I don`t. To be quite honest with you, that percentage of negativity, I don`t respond, I don`t pay attention to it. It doesn`t affect me. I try to move on with my life and just live it the most Christ-like that I can. So -- I`m $2.5 million in debt, so I have to do something to earn a living and keep a roof over my head.


GRACE: With me right now, Derrick Ashong, Fusion anchor who interviewed Zimmerman. Derrick, thank you for being with us. What does Zimmerman say? I almost even hate to ask, because every time we talk about him, he`ll probably make more money online. You know, pull up that art that he apparently traced from the AP, and the one before that he sold for 100 grand online. Yes, there you go, 100 grand for that. That`s a ripoff. Go ahead, Derrick. Thank you.

DERRICK ASHONG, FUSION ANCHOR: Thank you for having me, Nancy. We actually did talk to him about that. One of the simple things we asked him is, are you profiting from the death of a child, from killing a kid? And he feels like, no, he`s not profiting, and he doesn`t even have a response for the question that people would pose. And one of the biggest things I took from interviewing him is that he doesn`t seem to have any sense of remorse or culpability for anything that happened.

GRACE: You know, let`s hear him, Liz. Roll it.


ASHONG: Do you feel like you`ve been a victim?

ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely.

ASHONG: Of what?

ZIMMERMAN: There are so many different aspects, but I feel like the people in power, like Governor Scott, cowered to political pressure and shredded the Constitution and spit in the face of all of our fallen soldiers, and went through with a malicious prosecution simply for political pressure.


GRACE: Okay! Larry Elder, KABC radio talk show host, Mo Ivory, Shireen Hormozdi, Jeff Gold, all right, Elder, he`s at it again.

ELDER: What do you mean, at it again?

GRACE: He won`t shut up. It`s blood money. Elder, blood money. He`s making money. Nobody would care what he had to say or buy his art, which is a trace of someone else`s art, for 100 grand if he hadn`t shot down Trayvon Martin.

ELDER: When you say nobody cares what he has to say, I would recommend that the media would stop putting a microphone in his face whenever he wants to say something. What has happened here, Nancy, is -- he`s become an avatar for all the things that people don`t like about Florida, they don`t like about the country, they don`t like about what they perceive to be racism. A lot of people are still mad at Florida since 2000 and Bush versus Gore.

GRACE: What are you even talking about, Bush v Gore?

ELDER: They don`t like stand your ground, they don`t like --


GRACE: What are you talking about, Elder?

ELDER: The only reason we`re here--

GRACE: Like Avatar (ph), Bush v Gore.

ELDER: Trayvon Martin happened to be a black kid and he was killed by a non-black person. Otherwise, why are we even having this conversation? There were about 500 homicides in Chicago alone last year.


IVORY: Larry, why are we even here? Can you imagine what that sounds like to Trayvon`s parents, to Jordan`s parents, for you to say something like, why are we here after their kids were slayed down, unarmed and murdered, and why are we here?


ELDER: Would you like me to respond?

IVORY: No, I don`t want you to respond.


GRACE: Actually, I do. Because you are advocating that Zimmerman keep making money off of Trayvon`s death. That`s what you`re doing.

IVORY: And he`s not an avatar, he`s a real person who killed a real person. He`s not an avatar by any means at all.

ELDER: Calm down.

GRACE: Larry!

ELDER: Unlike a lot of people, Nancy, my family has suffered a loss. I have a little brother we lost about 20 years ago. Fortunately, not to violence, to illness, but don`t tell me I don`t know what it`s like to have a parent bury a child. I am also a lawyer, Nancy.

GRACE: That`s not what we`re talking about.


ELDER: The lawyer in me tells me this was a reasonable doubt case from day one. He had a reasonable defense, the jury did not buy the idea that he was out trying to kill Trayvon Martin. He is a free man, found not guilty. He has the right to carry a concealed weapon, he has the right to be a free man, and we ought to let him go.

IVORY: the jury didn`t believe that he did not kill Trayvon Martin. What they believed was that the evidence didn`t show they were able to convict him. We all know he murdered Trayvon Martin. He is a murderer.

ELDER: No, we don`t know that.

IVORY: Yes, we do, absolutely.

ELDER: The jury found him not guilty.

IVORY: Is Trayvon dead?



ZIMMERMAN: I`ve not spoken to the Martin-Fulton family at all.

ASHONG: And if you had a chance to speak to them, what would you say?

ZIMMERMAN: Because of the ongoing civil rights violation investigation by the Department of Justice, I wouldn`t say anything to them.

I`m blessed that I had security cameras all around my house, and I didn`t think the police thought of it to review it to see if I really had pulled a gun out and waved it. And they said -- I mean, they put the video out there. Everyone can see for themselves. I never pull a gun out.

So those people, I would ask them if they have such a strong opinion, what have they done to research that opinion?


GRACE: Larry Elder, you seem to be on Zimmerman`s side. I`d like to find out why he won`t go away. Derrick Ashong, tell me what else you learned from Zimmerman.

ASHONG: One of the things that we saw is he seems to use a lot of biblical references when he is talking about himself and how he sees himself.

GRACE: Please tell me he did not compare himself to Jesus, please.

ASHONG: He didn`t directly compare himself to Jesus --

GRACE: Oh, dear Lord!

ASHONG: -- but he does seem to have some sort of sense that God is his only judge. Not acknowledging what a lot of people would say--

GRACE: He`ll be his judge all right.

ASHONG: -- that he put himself as judge, jury and executioner of another human being.

GRACE: You know what, Derrick Ashong with Fusion, interesting point. Elder, what about that? When anybody is backed into a corner, specifically Zimmerman, he draws out the Jesus card and starts throwing around religion, God is my judge. I agree with him on that. But it`s like nothing else matters.

ELDER: So we`re going to parse every word this guy says. Maybe he should hire a speech writer. He`s not a senator, he is not a speech writer. He`s not a debater. He`s a guy who was found not guilty. I don`t understand why we`re not talking about the 500 homicides in Chicago alone - - or we`re not talking about the fact that in New York City--

GRACE: What I don`t understand is every time I throw you a question, Larry Elder, you start talking about something else.

ELDER: You don`t want to talk about the fact that the No. 1 preventable cause of death for young black men in this country is homicide, almost always at the hands of another black person. But you let a black person get killed by a non-black person, as Michael Dunn killed a 17-year- old, or Trayvon Martin killed somebody, you want to march on Washington. It`s absurd.

GRACE: Let me tell you something, Elder, I spent my whole legal career representing crime victims, including African-American youth. My entire legal career. Over ten years defending crime victims. But Mo Ivory, last word to you.

IVORY: I love that argument, let`s go right to black on black crime when we`re talking about Trayvon Martin, which is what they always, always do, deflect it away. We are talking about George Zimmerman. We`re talking about a man that murdered a 17-year-old in cold blood.



ZIMMERMAN: I can`t do a lot of things that normal people do or that people take for granted, but I will say that I have also recognized that a lot of those people that feel that way, don`t know me. They have no idea who I am. They know who the media portrayed, who the state portrayed me. But after spending three to five minutes with me, three to five minutes with me, most people change their opinion about me.

ASHONG: Do you have anger control problems?

ZIMMERMAN: No. I think that was evident through the trial. You have the state prosecutors literally shouting in court and pointing fingers at me and calling me a child murderer in front of the jury, and I think the biggest reaction they got out of me was a blank.


GRACE: So Derrick Ashong, Fusion anchor who interviewed Zimmerman, how much money do you think that he`s -- ka-ching -- made off of killing Trayvon Martin?

ASHONG: It`s hard to say. And I think the real problem when we look at a situation like this, is it goes much beyond George Zimmerman. Zimmerman basically got away with murder, I would say. But we look at the situation with the Dunn trial this weekend, and Charles (sic) Dunn was not convicted of the murder of Jordan Davis. And what that says to me--

GRACE: Don`t worry yet, Derrick, because there`s going to be a retrial, and at least in that case he got about 60 to 90 years jail time. But I can guarantee you--

ASHONG: Which is true, but because -- because they didn`t convict on murder, you`re basically saying to people in Florida, if you shoot a young black man and you don`t kill him, you might be in trouble, but if you kill him, you can get away with it. And that`s a problem.

GRACE: I agree. But let me tell you another thing, Derrick, having been a victim of violent crime myself, if the killer of my fiance -- right before our wedding, Derrick -- if that case had never gone to trial, I don`t think I could live with myself. And I appreciate the jury`s coming back on the other counts, and this guy`s going away for life essentially. But Jordan Davis` trial needs to be retried. That courtroom is going to be having a trial that week and it needs to be about Jordan Davis.

ASHONG: Absolutely. Let`s hope there`s not going to be another Jordan Davis or Trayvon Martin.

GRACE: Amen.

Let`s stop and remember American hero, Marine Lance Corporal Joshua Birchfield, 24, Westville, Indiana. Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, loved baseball and softball and fishing with his dad. Parents Bruce and Michelle, stepfather Ron, two sisters. Joshua Birchfield, American hero.

Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.


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